In this interview, Professor Wang Dong of Peking University and CUSEF President James Chau discuss the ongoing academic collaboration and exchanges between Chinese and American universities. They also highlight the Johns Hopkins SAIS program supported by CUSEF as an example on how increased exchanges encourage young leaders to learn from each other.
Professor Wang Dong calls for a “new engagement consensus” between Beijing and Washington, emphasizing mutual respect and reciprocity without intent to change each other. He also notes that China and the United States have the potential to serve as the pillars of the global system, while working collaboratively with other stakeholders.
James Chau:
Professor Wang Dong, we are here in Hong Kong, but you live ordinarily in Beijing. Tell us what Beijing is like these days?
Wang Dong:
Beijing is the capital of the country, and also the cultural center. So being an academic myself, now teaching at Peking University, I can tell you that a lot of academic activity is going on — academic exchanges, including receiving delegations from American universities, professors and their students. And we’re also engaged in a lot of dialogue with our American counterparts. A lot of collaboration is also going on. Right now for us scholars, I think it is an exciting moment. So we pick up the momentum and start planning, and already there is something we’ve already done. And we wanted to build on past achievements over the years, and we look for more collaboration going forward.
James Chau:
For me, it’s encouraging to hear from you and understand, because on one hand we have this very high-level activity of ministers going back and forth between Beijing and Washington. Of course, Secretary Tony Blinken was recently in Beijing, as one example; the two presidents met in California a couple of months ago, as another example. But there’s also this very low base that this relationship is working from, because of years of difficulties and complexities —and of course the pandemic to boot. We hear about there being only some 700 American students studying in China right now. At the same time, you’re telling us that there is a thriving academic exchange? Is that picture a combination of the two?
Wang Dong:
Well, I think the numbers are a bit debatable, depending on how you define it. I think the number comes from the American side, based on the perhaps the number of American students registered, you know, studying currently pursuing a degree in China, that number is limited. But if you also take into account American students who come to pay a short visit — one week or two weeks, or a summer course — the number could be multiple times. That number could be at least I think over 1,000.
You already mentioned that the two presidents met in San Francisco last November. And President Xi also unveiled this initiative to invite 50,000 American students who come to visit and study in China over the next five years. So we at Peking University are part of that effort. We try to really encourage and work very closely with our American counterparts to welcome more American students who come to visit and study in China, including at Peking University.
James Chau:
Personally, I think that the 50,000 vision is an amazing one just like the 100,000-strong that President Barack Obama himself established. I get it when you say that the numbers could be closer to 1,700. I think we can agree, though, that the numbers have really collapsed from their peak up to many, many thousands right before the pandemic. And I get also that the vision of 50,000 is already in motion. What I’m concerned about, though, is this: 250,000 American students want to come to China over the next five years.
Wang Dong:
My impression is that there is also quite some enthusiasm on the part of our American counterparts because we keep in close contact with a lot of American universities. And we also work very hard with various [Chinese] government agencies — the Foreign Ministry, Ministry of Education, etc., to try to create a better condition for American students to come to visit. Personally, I cannot, of course, speak for all American students. For instance, a couple of weeks ago, we received a group of students led by their professor from Johns Hopkins SAIS, and we actually put our students and the SAIS students together for lunch at our cafeteria. And that was just amazing. As students, they really, I think, really love to interact with each other. And there’s a lot of deep conversation. And we also have, you know, senior professors from outside give lectures on U.S.-China relations. And then I said, you know, give all the Q & As to our American students. They asked dozens, tons of questions. Everything you can imagine — Belt and Road Initiative, you know, and Chinese foreign policy, China-U.S. relations, just a wide range of issues.
James Chau:
Are the questions skeptical or inquisitive? What’s the mood? What’s the temperature of that?
Wang Dong:
Generally, I think the American students are very much trying to understand — for instance, what really Belt and Road Initiative is about. And of course, they would have some impression based on their reading of the American or Western media. Professors tried to communicate with them, tried to explain to them what their real intention and practice is. And, of course, we are not hiding from the challenges we’re also facing, and tried to be very honest and frank with them. So at the end of the day, I think this kind of exchange is really fruitful, really productive. And the American students I think are very happy about the kind of visit.
James Chau:
When you have a class of American students — and you’ve taught American students and you’ve been a student at UCLA — and when you have a class of mainland Chinese students, do they all ask the same questions? And do they ask those in the same way?
Wang Dong:
Well, I wouldn’t expect the Chinese and American students will ask specifically, exactly, you know, pose a question in the exact same manner. There will be different approaches, a different perspective, of course — different background, different way of understanding. But I think there are also the same sorts of concerns. There’s a mutual understanding that this relationship is very important. And they also take, for example, the current student dialogue. You know, we were organizing, collaborating with Georgetown University and also involving Fudan University and UC San Diego. We’ve been doing this for a number of years. This is the fourth year. And we have subject matter for student dialogue and discussion, including climate change, the UN, China’s Global Development Initiative, etc. And on those things students are very intrigued about finding answers — answers to a lot of challenges. And they also do agree and understand that these are common challenges facing China, the United States and, actually, the whole world together. So I think that’s something when I look at it, I think I’m very encouraged about.
James Chau:
You mentioned this student delegation from four universities — Peking University, Georgetown, Fudan and UC San Diego. We at CUSEF — China-United States Exchange Foundation — are so happy to support it this year. You’re in Hong Kong for the first time, I believe, with this delegation, and you’re going to Shenzhen after this.
We do this work, because we believe that when you get young people in one room, in one space, in a lecture theatre or a canteen, as you said, at Peking University, we want Americans and Chinese to connect, to exchange ideas, to share their values in a way that is respectful and meaningful. But who do you think learns more? Which group do you think benefits from this experience coming from the culture that they do, and also going out into the world in the way we’re helping them do?
Wang Dong:
Well, I think individually there must be some sort of variation, right? Some people are more, some people less. But on average, I believe that both the Chinese and American students learn sort of equally from each other. I think it's fair to say that this is a mutually meaningful learning experience for both Chinese students and American students.
James Chau:
The perception of gaps was something that you picked up on. Following that summit in California between President Joe Biden and President Xi Jinping, you talked about the temperature gap and how that summit was covered by American and Chinese media. What was that gap? And what do you think contributed to the way that they approached the same events?
Wang Dong:
Well, you know, there was clearly a temperature gap in the media coverage of the summit. The Chinese media tended to be quite enthusiastic in covering the summit and sort of hailing it as setting the guiding principles for the China-U.S. relationship going forward. By contrast, I think the American media tended to be lukewarm, if not suspicious, partly because in the United States President Biden is under pressure from Congress, and the media naturally would be suspicious of the promises he made at the summit, and about the extent he can deliver later on. So I think those kinds of things really create different dynamics in the way that media create different perception.
James Chau:
So the stakeholders, key stakeholders, like yourself, know that the system of governance, and this being an election year will obviously steer certain narratives in America. Quite simply, any president in the United States has real domestic pressures in a way that would be different in China. So while key stakeholders know that, too, they understand it in a way that they’re empathetic toward that. They create a buffer that allows for that. So this miscommunication — there’s tension that we’ve seen — has characterized U.S.-China relations over the last decade almost.
Wang Dong:
At the end of the day, I think, for instance, both governments actually agree that despite the media coverage, the temperature gap, I think both governments agree that the summit was really crucial. It was pivotal in setting up the important principles for guiding the direction of China-U.S. solutions going forward. But I think you’re right, it will take a lot more efforts for both sides, really to sort of navigate through the domestic complexities — and particularly, as you mentioned, the upcoming American presidential election will add to the already complex domestic political situation more layers of complexity. So, how to do that? I think the short answer is that the more exchanges at all levels — at the leaders’ level, political level, government level, academic level and society level — the more chances we’ll be able to better understand each other and avoid misunderstanding and miscommunication.
James Chau:
Many Americans, not all Americans, but many Americans ask me, Who do the Chinese want to win the election in November? Now I wasn’t born in China, wasn’t raised there, so I can’t answer that question. But you were, and I’m sure many of your American colleagues and friends ask you that same question. What do you tell them?
Wang Dong:
You know, when we think about what we want, it really doesn’t count, right? So I think, for us, for Chinese people, we want whoever wins this election, the next president, to be sitting in the White House and setting the direction of policies for China-U.S. relations going forward to be someone pragmatic and who has a rational way of thinking about the mutual interest of both countries. So, you know, in other words, it’s not a zero-sum confrontation — no pushing relations to the edge of open conflict or even direct military conflict — but really taking a kind of pragmatic, responsible way of managing it, and producing more stable and better relations over at least the next four years.
James Chau:
Like you said, we don’t only work in cultural exchanges, important though they are. We are also very concerned about the economy and the global economy, the health and the wellbeing of it. I think that the economy at the end of the day is the fundamental foundation stone of the bilateral relationship, because we can get into long conversations about geopolitics and security and diplomacy. But we often forget that the economic one is a very, very important one — a critical one even. So let’s shift our focus in that direction. Investors are saying that it’s hard to prosper because there is a lack of predictability in the U.S.-China relationship. I mean, at U.S.-China relationship conferences, say 15 or 10 years ago, even as recently as that, the audience will be mainly scholars and analysts. Now you see banks, you see financial leaders coming in, because they want to read what the trend is likely to be and understand how they can anticipate those trends before they emerge. So is there going to be some stability? Is there going to be any predictability coming anytime soon?
Wang Dong:
This is precisely why we believe the summit last year that took place in San Francisco between our two leaders is really crucial, really important, because among other things, you really bring more stability and predictability back to the bilateral relationship.
James Chau:
You really think so?
Wang Dong:
Of course. Still, I think more predictability will be better — more stability. Both sides need to do more to stabilize the relationship, but we also do understand there are genuine disagreements between the two sides. And how to manage those differences is also of crucial importance.
James Chau:
I think they need to state very clearly that there will always be differences that they will never find agreement on — to acknowledge that, to agree to disagree — as people like Mr. Deng Xiaoping and Jimmy Carter did four or five years ago this year. And that is actually not only a good restarting point but also demonstrates respect toward one another. I understand that you have your own take on this.
Unfortunately, we won’t be able to find daylight on this, but there are many other issues on which we can. We need another approach.
You spoke at the beginning of the Biden administration about the new engagement consensus, I’m not sure whether you agree it has worked or not, but people outside of that will say that the relationship has failed spectacularly, even more so than from the previous administration.
So, as we go to the next administration, there will definitely be a former president of the United States in the White House, whether it be President Biden or President Trump. Would you push again for that same model of an engagement consensus? Or would you adjust it to suit a changing time, even though a lot hasn’t changed?
Wang Dong:
New engagement consensus is contrary to what I called old engagement consensus, in which a bipartisan consensus [formed] in the United States about engaging China since normalization. The idea is that the United States would usher China into a U.S.-led international system with the explicit expectation that China will be changed, becomes like the United States over time, both economically and politically. That old engagement consensus failed, of course. It was gone, along with the older equilibrium in the bilateral relationship.
So I think what we face now is that with the disruption of the old equilibrium in the bilateral relationship, we need to establish a new one — a process, which I think could probably take a decade, perhaps two. So it is not something that will happen immediately next year. It’s a long process. So my understanding is that China and the United States will have the idea of a new engagement consensus — that they engage each other, not unlike the old one, but now they will engage each other with mutual respect and reciprocity without this intent of trying to change the other. But also they serve as two pillars of the global system and help to promote and push the global system together with other stakeholders, and make the international system more stable and prosperous in the years to come, while in the process managing their differences.
Of course, there will be competition, no doubt about that. But the there’s no vicious competition. So it will be a healthier relationship that will be well-managed, and it will be calibrated.
I would argue that this is one of the ideal pathways going forward. There’s no guarantee that will happen, but I think my responsibility, my duty, is really to try to base it on rational calculation, on understanding and analysis. I try to point out that this should be the way to go. And how to do that? I think scholars can only do a small share, which is to help promote more academic exchanges, including student dialogue. But I think if we agree that it is of crucial importance to the relationship in the coming decades, we have to work.
James Chau:
Let me finish off with this because you wrote an article about 10 years ago laying out how we should not misread China. I want to flip that title around and to finish off by asking you this: How should we not misread the United States? We as a world, we as Chinese? You know, you’ve been a beneficiary of America as a student. You’ve contributed to America as a teacher, and the University of Pennsylvania. So as someone who has interacted with both cultures — you’re of one, and you’ve gone to the other — you really do have a unique insight. How should we not misread the United States? How should we not misread Americans?
Wang Dong:
Thank you. Well, again, I was surprised that you actually read my article that I published more than 10 years ago, I was really flattered by that. Thank you. I think what we have to understand is that the United States is also a very complex society. So there is no single right voice, with the United States, yes, being a hegemon now, and with China rising very rapidly on the international stage. So there’s bound to be tension between the two, and the question is how to manage that. I think also it’s very important for us also to better understand, I think, that the United States is not us, so what do we imagine? I think the same can also be applied to the United States. The United States should understand it is not us — as it imagines or fears. And this is precisely what is going on now. If we look at the American narrative about China, it’s really a mixture of fear and misperception — even paranoia. So how to avoid that and to arrive at a more sort of coolheaded, more pragmatic, more rational sense of each other? That will be the key. And I think we, you know, as scholars, we definitely should do more work in that regard.
James Chau:
My great hope is that this conversation, specifically your insights in this conversation, will help illuminate minds and also to put us all back on a track where, as you said, perception is not based on imagination and not on fear. Thank you very much. Learning from you today.
Wang Dong:
My honor. Thank you.