Goh Chok Tong is one of only three people to have served as Singapore's Prime Minister since 1959, succeeding Lee Kuan Yew on his election in 1990 and remaining in that office till 2004.

He is currently Emeritus Senior Minister and Member of Parliament. Stories from his distinguished leadership are captured in the new biography Tall Order, a biography that recounts his journey and challenges as a politician, and the formative experiences that inform his global leadership today. In this interview with James Chau, he anticipates the major trends in a rapidly changing world, and how attitudes towards globalization and opportunities around technology will present new challenges. He also discusses the "misunderstandings" between the two largest economies.

This interview was recorded at the US-China Trade and Economic Relations Forum in Hong Kong on 9-10 July, 2019.

James Chau:
Minister Goh, you were prime minister during challenging times and arguably in this particular period of modern history, we live in even more divisive times. What do you anticipate in terms of global trends and how can we best anticipate that and prepare ourselves for it?

Goh Chok Tong:
Well, I think the challenge for us is the changing attitude. There was globalization and I can see signs of some countries moving towards selective protectionism. So there's one train we could watch unfold. The other of course is technological change that's going to have an impact on all of us. And not all countries can cope with the changes in technology, because technology may replace some job. And when people are out of jobs, what do they do? I mean, it is a real problem looking after your livelihood. The most pressing problem now in a sense the misunderstanding or not adequate understanding between the two big countries, the US and China. China is now seen by the US as a potential strategic threat to national security. But, this is based on maybe prejudice, there's misunderstanding. The consequences could be quite worrying for us.

James Chau:
I just wanted to leverage off your two roles both in Singapore and as a global states figure. Singapore could also be perceived to be a threat given its enormous economic and social progress, yet it manages to strike a balance of being friends and partners. How do you negotiate those waters and what would you say are the essential skills to take them that no matter how big or small your country is?

Goh Chok Tong:
That is perceptive because in our part of the world, Singapore thrives on adding value to other people. So we have to be, for example, a very efficient port. But, when we became successful as a port, our neighbors, of course, did not quite like it. Without Singapore, maybe they are supposed to flourish. So we were seen as a threat. The idea of prosperity, but it's the question of a greater pie. When the world grows, more cargoes come to the area, to Singapore. Our port is the biggest in the area, but the airports have also grown. But very importantly, one minister from Indonesia told me, he said thank you very much for your efficient port. Otherwise our goods through Indonesia would have difficulties in being shipped out to the rest of the world. Because as I said, the airports are not so efficient. Indonesia is a very big country, sprawling country, many islands, so the goods have to be transported to Singapore and shipped out. So it's getting people to understand. So we add value to others, that's the key. You've got to add value to the others. you don't take away the idea. The idea, the ability to grow, add value and they also grow. So that's one way I think to get countries accepted. A treat became, in fact, a partner for them.

James Chau:
There is a temptation to look at one of the biggest global challenges today, the trade dispute between the United States and China, two of the biggest economies in the world, and to be limited to that one narrow area where in fact it's much wider and deeper than that. What should we be thinking about in terms of functional thinking and approaches? Not just the trade dispute.

Goh Chok Tong:
There are some differences which can be addressed. In the case of China, for example, China, joined the WTO some years ago as a developing country. They would give China more time, they implemented certain policies, but China is now so competitive in many areas, and so the developed countries we see this as unfair to them. They say they can't compete. So then the term they use now is not free and open trade, but fair trade. What does fair trade mean? It means to give them a chance. So where there are rules that can be changed, the Chinese are on the forefront working with the other members. They say, okay, let's update the rules. And this is important in the area of digital economy, that's a new area, there are no rules there. So I think China should move into that area to say let’s set up some rules on digital economy, competition, what are the rules? And if the Chinese lead and get others to join and the rules should be fair to all. I think these are things that China can do. And to the question of intellectual property, I think China should take the lead. I can tell you this, in the old days Singapore was poor. we were actually copying a lot of our stuff from other people. We were in fact photocopying books and arguing that this is good for the students. I mean they couldn't afford books, but we were actually stealing private property of others. Then, within ourselves argued, we are going to be producing intellectual property. That must be the aspiration of Singapore, not just copying others. So when we started to have innovative products with intellectual property, we started to argue to better have intellectual property. So China is in that position now where China must protect this intellectual property. So again, China can move forward, through the WTO and through the intellectual property organization in the world, then move forward. So that phase should be all over for China. So move forward and then by moving forward you are showing to the others that I'm cooperating with you. I'm not going to steal your intellectual property, but please don't steal mine when mine is there in the future.

James Chau:
In reality is there a way forward in a setting where on top of all the challenges that you negotiated when you were Prime Minister, we have digital eras, we've got the emergence of five G, the good and the bad. We've got fake news. Is it possible for our young people to skillfully have the required set of tools to handle that?

Goh Chok Tong:
Well, I think we have to learn as you go along, there's not really a solution at this stage. So when this comes along, the leaders and the people have got to work on the solution to fake news. The Internet when it came about, I was at one of the early meetings at APAC talking about Internet and the leaders are talking about the positive aspects of the Internet. I warned them, I said that we should also look at the negative side because Internet could be abused by people.

James Chau: You saw it even then. What did you see then?

Goh Chok Tong: I did not see all the reasons for using the Internet. I did not know about fake news and so on, but I know that a road, is meant for good as much as it is for robbers to get away too. So, I just said, Internet, look at the negative part, but I did not foresee fake news, money laundering through the Internet, Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency, and so I didn't see all those. But every positive part has caused a negative. Globalization has caused these negative daily effects. So therefore, for the young people, have a balance. When we look at a positive side and control the negative side, that allows the negative side to inhibit progress, to restrain you. So move forward first and then decide what we do with the negative side.

James Chau:
One of your great values as a facilitator is that you're able to see things from around and beyond your independent platform. What would you tell the US and China? They've got very different systems. Does democracy in the Western sense work for China?

Goh Chok Tong:
Well I will say, both systems work for the respective country. Your organization, the society, the way it’s organized, and going forward, they're different. But, what are they for? What are these two organizations for? It is not for the good of the people in charge. It is for the welfare of the people. Then yours is this way historically and culturally and mine is this way, are we advancing the interests of the people? And that's when common norms comes in. I mean human rights. I think both sides would agree on human rights. Of course, one side can accuse the other side of not living up to human rights, and says if I'm not, then I aspire to that kind of human rights. But in China's case, the greatest human rights Xi has given to the people is relief from poverty. There’s about 400 million people in the middle class, but maybe 800 million people now enjoying a good life. In India in 1971, I could see poverty. So that's the greatest human right gift given to the people of China. Poverty, education, health, and so on. Transportation, the ability to move around China. Now that's freedom for the people. One day, maybe, the people here will enjoy this other kind of a freedom which the West talks about, but let China progressi at its own pace. But you must have stability, security in order to have a good economy. I think China is moving in the right direction.

James Chau:
Millions of people have lent and depended on your experience and your leadership, and I trust that millions more will learn how to walk on the road and beyond.

Goh Chok Tong:
No. My experience is that of governing a very small country, that's all it is.

James Chau:
Minister Goah, Thank you very, very much.

Goh Chok Tong:
Thank you. Thank you.